>> Today is February 26th, 2018,
and I'm here at the Sturgis Library
at Kansas State University with
Robert Massaro for a legacy series interview
during which we will remember his grandfather,
Patrick Massaro, who served on
the hospital train during World War II.
My name is Adina Leger,
and my first question for you is,
do you agree to this interview?
>> I do.
>> Great. Could you please state your full name?
>> It's Robert Eric Massaro.
>> What's your birthday?
>> My birthday 4, 22, '71.
>> Before we talk more about you and your life,
I'd like to go back a bit further
and talk about your grandfather.
What was your grandfather's full name?
>> His birth name. He was born in Italy.
He was Pasqualino Massaro,
and one come to America and he actually changed it.
There was not a lot of
Italian people around where he was,
and there was a lot of Irish,
and he actually changed it to Patrick, growing up.
>> So can you tell me more
about where and when he was born?
>> He was born in 1918,
came to America when he was four years old.
His father came first and
his mother came four years later with him,
and he grew up in New Haven Connecticut.
>> Where in Italy was the family from?
>> They're from Benevento,
which is right outside of Naples,
about a half hour away from Naples.
>> So he came over when he was four?
>> Correct.
>> And they settled in New Haven.
What was that town like?
What was their neighborhood like when he arrived?
>> My great grandfather got
a sponsor actually for the railroad,
and that's how they arrived in New Haven.
That time, a lot of
immigrants were moved in to that area.
What is funny that there's
a lot of people from Benevento.
My mother's side of the family is from Benevento also.
My stepmother's side is from Benevento also.
A lot of people from
Benevento immigrated to that area of Connecticut.
>> Were they a religious family?
>> Actually, I was thinking on the way over here,
my grandmother was going to be
a nun before she met my grandfather.
My grandmother was very religious.
They were in the same church for maybe 50 years.
>> Was it one Catholic church that the
Irish immigrants and the Italian immigrants,
they all went to the same church?
>> Correct. At that time, yes.
>> How big was his family?
>> He had seven brothers and sisters.
One remained in Italy
when his mother came over the oldest,
which she later immigrated to Canada,
and that was seven total.
>> So what drew them to the United States?
>> I'm assuming just opportunity for work.
With my great grandfather getting
that sponsor in Connecticut for the railroad.
I'm assuming that period of
time there was lack of work in that part of Italy,
so they immigrated to America.
>> And your grandmother, was she a homemaker?
>> She was a homemaker, correct.
>> What were their names and
I met your great grandmother.
>> Great grandmother?
>> Grandmother and your great grandfather.
What were their names?
>> Michael and Louise.
>> Massaro.
>> Correct.
>> And did your grandfather
tell you any stories about how
the depression affected his family?
>> I know it affected him greatly growing up
during the depression. He was very frugal.
He went to war and came back and he bought
his house and he paid it off in one year in 1952.
He remained in that house until he passed away.
He was 96 when he passed,
but he paid off that house in one year.
But very frugal, always
concerned and he told
me a story that the builder said, "You have the money.
Why don't you just build a bigger house?"
He said, "That's all I need."
And he's fine.
But even the lawnmower,
he bought in 1952 after he passed,
I found a receipt for the lawnmower.
He always told me he was 22 years old.
I found the receipt he bought in 1952,
and this was about seven years ago.
So he used the same lawnmower, just kept fixing it,
but it changed him and
my family as far as being frugal and conservative
in hard times you
learn a lot about yourself and how to live.
>> Was your great grandfather
able to keep his job with the railroad?
>> To be honest, I'm not sure.
I know my grandfather went to
the seventh grade and went to work after that,
but one of the things he did during the depression
was they made parks
around Connecticut and the highways they worked on.
>> He joined the Civilian Conservation Corps?
>> Yes. I believe that was it. Yeah.
>> So he would have been a young teenager at that point?
>> Correct.
>> And did he tell you much about
what have you ever seen the house where he grew up?
>> Actually, I have not,
which is funny because I lived near there in New Haven,
but I never went to that area, but I should.
>> Did it remain an immigrant neighborhood?
>> No. It changed over time.
That town changed drastically over time.
>> You mentioned that your grandfather
went up through seventh grade?
>> Correct.
>> What was his schooling
like? Do you know much about that?
>> Actually, I do not, unfortunately.
>> Did he tell you any stories
about what he did for fun when he was a kid?
>> He enjoyed I know one thing was singing.
He was a very good singer,
which when he got older, he would start singing again,
but a friend of his,
they would use a boat
and they would go out along the shore.
We grew up on the water and they would sing.
He would sing and his friend would
play I think the guitar and they would tell him
to come closer to shore that they
wanted to throw money into
the boat and he wasn't
looking for money. He was just looking to sing.
Another thing he had an interest in when he was very
young was carpentry which he loved until he died.
He was 94 still making things out of wood for people,
but he told me a story of a boat,
he would go and sketch a boat in
a window in a shop and the man saw him one day.
He said, what are you doing? He said,
I want to make that boat at
home and I just want to sketch it
out and he made the boat.
He had lighting in it. Seen a picture of it before.
When he went off to war,
his sisters fell on
hard times to actually sold the boat on him.
They told him it was in a fire in the house,
but he believes that they actually sold it,
but throughout his life,
he worked as a carpenter for 39 years,
making gun stocks for Mossberg Firearms.
>> And do you know when
and where he met your grandmother?
>> That is a great question.
I do not, I believe they met when they
were about 15/16 years old.
>> They went to the same church?
>> In New Haven, I'm not 100% sure, unfortunately.
>> But they were together at the time the war started.
>> Correct. They were married.
>> What was your grandmother's name?
>> Margaret.
>> What was her main name?
>> Kamisky.
>> And what was her background then? Not Italian?
>> It was Irish, actually.
Her parents immigrated from Ireland.
The year, I do not know,
but they immigrated from Ireland.
>> And do you know much about how he and
his family and friends may have
learned about what was going on in the world.
Did they have a radio?
>> During the wartime or previously?
>> During pre war.
>> I don't know, actually.
>> Did he tell you any stories
learning about the attack on Pearl Harbor?
>> No. I know that those years,
he wanted to go to war.
He wanted to enlist his company,
kept deferring him that he
didn't know about Mossberg Firearms.
And right around that time,
my grandparents got married.
My grandmother was pregnant with my father,
and he wanted to
go and then he found out my grandmother was pregnant,
and then he wanted to wait until my father
was born to go.
And so he was able to go.
He was 27 years old.
And then he was waiting on my father to be born,
and then they said, "You got to go now."
So he left.
>> So at that point,
had he enlisted or was he drafted?
>> He enlisted.
>> So where did he train?
Do you know much about his training?
> Unfortunately, I could
look it up with the paperwork that I
have off the top, I do not know.
>> Did he tell you any stories about
his buddies or his cohort before he was deployed?
>> Mainly, he spoke about a sergeant
that they spent a lot of time in
the hospital train. They would stay up at night.
He did a lecture when I was in college in '94 at school,
I went to a French class,
asked him to come in and speak about the war.
What he enjoyed most about being
there was helping and fixing,
and working on the hospital training.
That's what he wanted to speak about.
He found an old stereo,
he ran wiring into each,
they're actually cattle cars at
the main into hospital train.
He found speakers, put them in each car,
would play records for everyone.
He said he cut doors from each cattle car,
going into the next one,
and took the old boots and like these,
took a leather and made straps
and hinges out of the boots,
and made doors to go into each car so
the nurses could go from car to car to help the patients.
He found fireplaces and put them in each car.
And actually, the picture that I have of him,
with everyone from the hospital train,
there's about 70 men there.
You could see the smokestack coming out
of the fire, out of the car.
>> So let's talk more about that.
So he was originally
assigned as the cook; is that right?
>> Correct. He went into the military.
He worked in a bakery in 36 as a kid,
and I still have a tool that he
had that he wrote Bond bakery 1936 on.
And I don't know if I showed you that,
but that's a fun thing
that I knew that he got it from there.
So he knew how to bake.
And when he went into the military,
he was a baker and they said,
"We don't need bakers, we need medics."
He said, medic now.
And that's how he became a medic.
>> So he was a medic.
He had his training as a baker and
as a carpenter because he
was already working for the firearms company?
>> Correct.
And so he was assigned to the 11th hospital training?
>> Correct.
>> And where were they deployed?
>> I want to say from Virginia.
I'm not 100% sure I have it,
but off the top, I'm not 100% sure.
>> And this was 1944?
>> I believe so.
>> And so what was this hospital training like?
Can you talk about how he described it?
>> Old cattle cars.
I remember the Battle of the Bulge
44 in Belgium when his sergeant told him
to drive the hospital train to
France towards Paris. Do you want me to?
>> Yes, start up. Tell us that great story.
>> He was in a train trestle.
That day he said they pulled
into a small town in Belgium.
He said it was very airy.
There was a light snow that day.
It was Christmas Day,
and they were trying to blow up that train that day.
And I just reminded myself in the article,
it was 142 buzz bombs
that were fired at the train that day.
And I know that was my grandfather counting,
because he's instilled that into me to count everything.
And he was the man that was
very detailed oriented with that.
So there was 40 other men
hiding that day
when they were trying to blow up the train.
There was 250 patients on the train, men,
women, prisoners of war
that were waiting to go to the hospital in Paris.
They waited several hours.
The two Belgium engineers
left because
they knew they were going to blow up the train.
And a sergeant that he was very close to told him,
Massaro, you have to drive the train.
He said, I'm a medic. I don't know how to drive a train.
He said, well, if you don't drive the train,
these people are going to die,
they have to get that hospital in Paris.
He said, try driving it,
and we'll go from there.
So my grandfather said he put it in
gear to go and
he said he kept bucking the cars
because they were linked together,
and he said I guess,
like a standard car.
They were bucking because
he wasn't used to driving a train,
and he said the men were just groaning in
the back from the shaking of the train.
And so the sergeant said,
I'm going to get you going,
I'm going to jump off and go towards Paris on the tracks.
He said you have to go through the night.
And no headlight, they'll
see the head light, they'll blow up the train.
When you put the coal in the stove,
put it in real fast, close the door real fast.
You're going to see that glow of
that stove and they're going to blow up the train.
So the sergeant got him going, said, good luck,
and he went off towards Paris in
the night with no head light to see.
So he didn't know what was ahead of him.
The sergeant told him,
you'll go over a 300 foot bridge.
Once you go over that bridge,
there'll be a shack on the right hand side.
You'll go a few more miles and see the shack.
There'll be a soldier there
that will take that train into
Paris because there's a lot of exchanges in the tracks.
I have the original map that he had that had
every stop that they made to pick up the wounded.
I forget how many stops it was,
but he has a map of that.
But he took the train into the night.
He said that he stopped in a tunnel during the night
because they were trying to blow up the train from above.
Waited and got the train going again and then went over
that 300 foot bridge and got
to that shack with the soldier on it.
And the soldier asked him, how did you get here?
His first words to him.
And probably because I have a sense of
humor that he probably said well, I took the train.
And he still looked in astonishment,
the soldier and said they blew up the trestle,
they blew up the bridge.
He goes, how did you get here?
So it's not very
clear if it was the Americans or
the Germans that blew up that bridge.
I was behind enemy lines,
but the bridge was blown.
>> So he must have made it just by minutes?
>> Yes. Just in time.
>> So what was life like on that train?
>> My grandfather like me,
enjoy helping and doing things,
and that's what he did a lot of.
He spoke to the French class when I was in college,
and that's what he wanted to speak about
was all the things that he
was doing on that hospital train.
The things he was fixing.
He was not a medic. He loved
people and he was very helpful,
but he enjoyed more of creating
and working on the train
and speaking to the Sergeant Latty.
They would stay up late at night just
speaking about what they could do to improve the train.
>> Were there other hospital trains too?
>> There was a lot. I don't
know how many, unfortunately.
There's actually a museum in England that contacted me
on some of the information
that my grandfather had in his journal.
He had a listing of
everyone that was on the hospital train,
their phone numbers, their addresses,
and that's the only thing they were
missing in this museum.
I was a World War II hospital train Museum in England.
And a gentleman asked me for that and I said,
I have that. So I sent it to him.
>> So you mentioned that they transported the wounded
both allies and German soldiers.
>> Correct.
>> And did he talk much
about his interactions with the German soldiers?
>> The only story that I know is I have a dagger
at my house that he said he
took from a German soldier prisoner.
He said he had it in his boot
and that's the only time he said,
you cannot have that on here.
So he took it and took it home.
But it says made in Germany,
but it's written in English.
I think it's a Frogman knife,
but it's ironic that it's in English and made in Germany.
>> And I remember that when we were visiting your home,
you showed us a [inaudible] wooden box or sewing kit.
>> Sewing it kit. And I always call it
a jewelry box because it reminds me of a jewelry box.
My grandmother did a lot of sewing in Pantin,
Paris, right outside of Paris and France.
My grandfather, after the war,
he had 12 German prisoners
that worked in a carpentry shop for him.
There's two gentlemen that spoke some English,
Hans and Fritz that he would communicate through
to help the other workers.
So it was very
hard working my grandfather and very
regimented and oriented with everything.
Going back to depression,
he was very frugal and didn't want to waste anything.
The younger American soldiers,
which were probably 17 could have been 16,18,
they were wasting food every day.
And my grandfather saw this.
He said they were driving the jeep and
had soup in a big pot in
the back and we're just driving fast and would
spill half of it in the back of the jeep.
And my grandfather I
believe he said he yelled and raised his voice.
But I heard my grandfather raise
his voice a couple of times and it's very loud.
So I know if someone is
wasting food and there's people that needed it,
he raised his voice.
So he told them, do not waste the soup.
And what he did was he actually took
the soup and told the prisoners of war,
at the time it was after the war,
he told them one at a time,
go in the back room and eat
real fast and get back to work.
And for that, he said he could've been court martialed,
put in jail for that act.
But they were men and he did what was
in his heart to help other men,
again, being after the war.
So the prisoners appreciated that and I'm
sure they appreciated him because he
was respectful to everyone.
On their own time, he said,
this sewing kit box,
which is dovetailed, they made it by hand.
It's a very nice piece
that they made on their own time, he said.
But I still have that.
And that was actually
one of the first things that I ever asked him for.
He started when he was getting older.
In his mid 90s,
he was getting rid of a lot of stuff.
And he told me that story many years before that,
and that was one thing that I did want
before he might have
gotten rid of it because it meant a lot to me.
>> So how did he communicate
with your grandmother during the war.
Did he send her letters?
>> He sent a lot of letters, yes.
I have a lot of the postcards.
He was shipping a lot of things home.
I have a German ammo box
that I found after he passed away.
I never saw it before.
And he wrote his address going back to Connecticut.
But he soldered it shut,
very clean and neatly and put
a German ammunition box right
in the US mail and sent it home.
>> Were there other things like that
that he sent home to her?
>> He sent a lot of things, larger things.
And after he passed, I would
find going through his property,
a lot of things that were signed Paris '45 and the date.
There's a letter holder that's marble,
that's April 21, 1945,
Paris that I never
realized he took it home from the war until
after I turned it over and was cleaning it.
>> That would have been right
around the time of Hitler's suicide.
Did he ever tell you about
his impressions of the end of the war?
>> Not too much. Again, he focused
on the positive of
him making things on the hospital train,
that he was very creative and it came through my father.
My father was an artist, and I'm an artist,
and it went down in the woodworking we both enjoy.
So he was more focused on that,
of the positive sides.
>> Did he have any strong memories or
opinion about President Roosevelt?
Did he ever share it with you?
>> Actually, he didn't. He never did.
>> So where was he then?
Was he in Paris then at the very end of the war?
>> Correct. I have
the boots here that say the six countries he was in.
>> Do you want to show them
and if you holds
them right in the middle of does that work?
>> I don't know if you can I'm sure you can't,
but he was in Scotland, and this is tough to read.
I know Germany, England, Luxemburg,
and Scotland England.
France and Belgium.
>> So these were all the places he was during the war?
>> Correct. And it says,
My World War II combat boots.
Then he wrote Battle Bowl 1944,
Christmas Eve and they're
actually Goodyear souls, which lasted.
>> If you could hold them a bit higher.
Maybe to this side,
and then up a little, perfectly.
>> So I guess these boots were not
subject to being trimmed for the hospital training.
>> Because they were his. Again, he
he wouldn't waste anything.
>> Do you remember when you first saw those boots?
>> They were always in his basement and
he got to the point where he just thought
things were junk when he was getting older and older
in age and he was
just more concerned about life than possessions.
>> So what was his homecoming like?
>> I know it was great for him, obviously.
I asked several people in
my family when they were happiest most in life.
I asked my father, my uncles,
older cousins, I asked my grandfather,
and it's the obvious answer,
but he stayed when I came home from war and I was
alive that was the happiest point in his life.
So when he came home,
he could not wait until my father was born.
He had to go so my father was
born when he was overseas and he has
the same picture that I
have he would drive around on his tricycle in
the house and put it on
the tricycle and look at
his father and ride his tricycle.
So my grandmother went to
the train station in Connecticut and New Haven to pick up
my grandfather when he was coming home
and father was holding my grandmother's hand,
and he actually went off running and she was
yelling Bobby and actually,
my father saw my grandfather from a distance and just
recognized him from the picture
and ran up to my grandfather,
and that was the homecoming of that.
Actually, when he came back to the country,
actually, when he was overseas,
he had an opportunity to visit Italy.
And he wanted to come home so
much because he was gone for so long from my grandmother,
my father, that he wanted to come home,
so he came home and they were
having a strike on the railroad.
So he had to wait, I believe in Virginia for
a month or two
until he could actually get home to Connecticut.
>> So he visited Italy
in the middle of the war and came home or?
>> He was actually never in Italy during the war,
but he had the opportunity to go to Italy to visit.
His sister was still there and so he decided to come home
instead of visiting the family
and the great grandparents, great great grandparents.
>> And so do your father have any siblings?
>> He did have a brother,
that was in the military also.
My father was in the Army also that
passed about 25 years ago, in his 40s.
>> And what was your father's relationship
like with your grandfather?
>> Distant. I know
my grandfather coming home from the war it
was not always easy.
He was a medic picking up wounded and the
dead and deceased so it was not easy on him.
And he never focused on that and he never mentioned it.
So I guess he internalized it,
but he focused on the positive things
and his contribution.
>> Do you have any memories?
What was your first impression of your grandfather?
>> I was very close to my grandfather.
I Very close,
he taught me a lot about life.
He would like to tell these stories a lot,
tell a lot of other stories,
and I'd go visit him growing up every Thursday,
I'd go help him do stuff around the house and
I'd spend once a week, I'd go see them.
But we were very much alike, organized,
I want to say compassionate and we both
helped a lot of people and
the frugality from him, he taught me.
But he taught me a lot about life,
probably the most out of anyone.
And so you mentioned that you grew up in New Haven.
>> Right outside of New Haven.
I lived in New Haven seven years, went to school there.
>> And so your parents,
also they met each other in New Haven?
>> Actually, they did, yes.
They both went to high school
so that's where they met in high school.
>> What are they names?
>> Ann Masaro and Robert Massaro, Robert William Massaro.
>> And do you have siblings, too?
>> My sister actually passed about 11 years ago.
So I'm the only child right now.
>> Just your sister?
>> Correct.
>> And so what do you remember most about growing up?
>> As far as my grandparents?
The holiday is going to see them.
I remember as a very small child,
five, six years old.
The cleanest yard you'd ever see the neatest organized.
He you know, he was frugal,
so he fixed everything.
If the furnace broke, he fixed it or replaced it.
He needed a garage he built his garage,
then he probably built about 10 on the whole street.
He was the handyman for the whole neighborhood.
His house needed siding, I know.
He put siding on it, put his roof on it,
built his garage, built a little room next to it.
But he was always busy
throughout his life. He was in his 70s.
He was cutting down trees with an axe.
He didn't want to stop when he was 95.
He had a nurse that stayed with him full time.
She took him on a road trip for eight hours to Virginia.
He 95 years old he had his girlfriend next
door that he knew for
about 40 years way after my grandmother passed,
financially secure, he had a good life.
He stayed in his home until he passed,
and that's what he wanted. So we were happy.
>> When did your grandmother passed?
>> 1998.
Actually September 97, she passed.
>> And when did your grandfather first
tell you about his war time experience?
>> I think all my life,
he tell me so much and I was so young I
never really appreciated it until later.
Actually until I came to
Kennesaw State and saw
the exhibit and started thinking that,
all the stuff that we have in the family,
the stuff that he gave me from the war to
do something with it to
show other people so they could appreciate it.
But he told me the stories all my
life and he'd repeat and repeat them.
And he would ask me,
did I ever tell you a story about
the hospital train that was like,
no and he would tell me again,
and I wasn't 100% listening.
And then the time that I was doing
the exhibit for the first time,
I told him to tell me the story again, please.
So he told me the story and I had
to really think about it really
connected at that point in time.
I said, you're a hero pop and he goes, no I'm not.
I said, well, if you didn't drive
the train and no one drove the train,
those people would have passed.
They needed to get to the hospital for one, two,
they might have want over a bridge that didn't
exist and he goes, no, I was just doing my job.
I said, well, if you didn't do your job,
those people would have passed and he
goes, I never thought about it.
And he was very sincere about that
that the whole time he was just doing his job,
what he was told and that's what he said to me.
>> So what other artifact did you bring with you today?
>> I brought a knife that a bayonet,
actually, that my father gave to
me. I don't know if you could see that.
My father gave this to me about 10 years ago
and it was my father's favorite uncle, his uncle Bill.
I never saw it before,
I didn't recall him having a knife.
But the interesting part of about this is my great uncle,
my grandfather's brother that
my grandfather was born in Benevento, Italy.
And so he came when he was four,
his older sister remained there.
The family got back together when
my great grandmother came four years later to the US.
They had several other children,
Uncle Bill enlisted for the war
and was actually deployed back to Italy.
And he actually went back to Naples, Italy,
where he was fighting and was hit by
a grenade and had amnesia for two months,
was hit in the leg, had trapnol
in his leg for the rest of his
life and walked with a limp.
But the ironic part is,
he was fighting where his family was
from and still was at the time,
and when he had amnesia,
he was at a 1,100 room castle right outside of Naples.
It's about a half hour away in [inaudible].
He was held there for a couple of months and then went
to northern part of
Africa and recovered the rest there but actually,
this is his knife.
So it means a lot to me because of
that story and that it was my father's favorite uncle.
So I'm happy passed it down to
me he thought it was actually
going to put it on eBay and sell it.
And he actually looked up pricing and I said,
I could never sell something like that.
>> So are there
any other stories about
your grandfather that you want to share?
>> Not of the top that I could think of.
>> Are there any other members of your family,
you mentioned your great uncle?
Mothers who fought in the war.
> My grandmother's brother actually fought in the war.
He was in England but I don't really
recall any others or having any other artifacts.
My grandfather was great at documenting in his journal.
He documented daily activities,
like I said earlier, everyone on the hospital train.
He took photographs which my cousin has
several photograph albums of people.
Every photograph that he had,
he wrote on everyone's name under it.
So it was great documentation where they were located.
It helped so much years later since
he's been gone to recognize people and so forth.
Even when he was a child,
he made scrapbooks,
I want to say in the early 20s or maybe late 20s.
He did scrap booking, which I saw
the growth of that from scrapbooks to his journal.
But he loved documenting information and
that helped me because
I do the same thing that I learned from him.
>> What do you think students should take
away from your grandfather's story?
>> I know what I take away,
and I don't know if that's for everyone, probably is.
But the story of when he had the German prisoners,
and he did something
that he could have been put in jail for.
As I said, it was after the war there were men like us,
all we're all different we all speak different languages.
But the main thing was
that he could have been put in jail,
but he knew it was after the war, they were starving.
He said they were very thin,
and we were wasting food
and to give that food to someone that needed it,
which that is the reason why I asked for
that box because it meant a lot from that story,
it's not what I love as far as a box,
but I keep it on display at my house.
I'm very proud of it for
that reason that he was helping another man.
>> And do you think that there are
any other lessons about
World War two and that
experience that people should remember?
>> Well, life and importance of life and helping
others and do what's right in your heart and your family.
Because that's when he said he was
happiest when he came home and met his son and was back
with his wife and I read the postcards
and how much he missed my grandmother when he was gone.
So the simple things and the little things he
carried on for the next 75 years.