>> Well, Reverend Walker,
you've got a very interesting family tree.
Why don't we start with Isam Jackson?
Tell us who he was.
>> Isam Jackson was a slave purchased in South Carolina.
Who made his way through
escape on the trail of tears with the Cherokee Indians.
And that's how he ended up in Oklahoma,
which was considered Indian
territory at that particular time.
And there he married
another slave by the name of Julia McBride.
>> But he wasn't a slave any longer right there.
>> He was no longer a slave
then because he was on Indian territory.
And now, from what I
understand and what was explained to me,
that on some of
the reservations there in Indian territory,
they still had some Blacks as slaves.
>> Some of the Cherokee in Indian own slaves.
>> Exactly.
>> I ever went to Oklahoma.
>> Exactly.
>> And so his wife was probably enslaved by a Cherokee?
>> Could possibly.
The other part of the history with that
is for some reason he was
traded off to I don't know if it was he
was sold or traded to the Choctaw Indians.
>> And maybe he wasn't free at that time?
>> Probably was not free
because a lot of oral history was passed to me
that we had a lot of
Choctaw Friedman that were in our family.
That was somewhat connected to him.
>> Do you know where in South Carolina he was enslaved?
>> They said Charleston is
where they traced where he was, actually,
sold in Charleston on the docks there in Charleston?
>> Do you mean when he came from when
he came from Africa?
>> Absolutely. When he came from Africa.
>> You know what part of Africa, any tradition?
>> Don't know at this time. No. I don't know.
>> So he sold in Charleston and
taken by a master to somewhere in South Carolina?
>> Yes.
>> And then probably is sold to a Native American.
>> Ran away.
>> Oh, he runs away.
>> He's a runaway. Yes.
>> And ends up with the Chattaw?
>> Ends up with the Cherokee Indians on
the trailer the time of the trail to? Yes.
>> So maybe he was still free.
>> May have been still free at that time.
>> And it wouldn't be unusual for
a free person to marry an enslaved person.
>> That wasn't unusual.
You would you would find a lot of that
because they wanted to stay within the race.
And so whether they were slaved or not enslaved,
they married and tried to stay married within the race?
But there was some intermingling with
the Native Americans and we know that through history.
>> So you think you had some Chokaw ancestors
through Isam Jackson's wife?
>> Absolutely.
>> And what was her name, again?
>> Her name was Julia McBride.
And there's a full other family tree section with her.
That's really extensive.
And I haven't really done a lot
of deep diving as it relates to that side,
but that's who I know he married.
And that's documented as well.
>> So Isam Jackson and Julia McBride are married
and they're living in
Oklahoma and then they have children.
>> A lot of children.
> Which one is your ancestor?
>> My ancestor is Val T. Walker.
Well, she was originally a Folsom,
which her dad was George Folsom,
who was a descendant of Isam Jackson.
Isam Jackson is which
comes from my father's mother's side.
He was considered my father's mother's cousin.
So that would be my grandmother's cousin.
Isam Jackson was the cousin of
my grandmother on my father's side.
He was the cousin.
So with that, the Jackson line,
you have some fulsoms that were there through marriage.
So although Jackson Married McBride,
Isam Jackson married Julia McBride,
with his children, there were multiple marriages,
so to speak, or there were other children
birth from different women?
>> Got married and woman spouse died and married again?
>> Somewhat like that.
And so there were different mothers in
there somewhere where the descendants
came and they had different last names,
but Isam Jackson was a cousin
of my grandmother on my father's side.
>> What do you know about the McBride's?
>> Not much. I know that she was
a slave Julia McBride was and that the McBride family,
of course, they were Irish.
Those slave owners were Irish.
And they were also in Oklahoma in a small area called
Fort Towson, Oklahoma. Fort Towson.
>> Towso.
>> It's right on the border of Arkansas in Oklahoma.
It's the Southeast corner of Oklahoma.
Close to the state line of Texas as
well by the Red River.
>> Now, how do the Folsom fit into the story?
>> Oh, boy. That's a long story,
but the Folsom were half Cherokee Indians.
The Folsom which my grandmother on my father's side,
she carried that maiden name Folsom.
And from what I
recollect and understand through or history was
that George Folsom had I want to say, 14 children.
And they were mixed with Chattaw Indian.
So they were very dark complected,
but had hair down their backs all of them.
And so that Folsom line,
all of those they were all birth in that same area,
the Hugo Fort Towson area of Southeast Oaklawn.
>> George Folsom a farmer or what do you know about him?
>> I don't know much about him.
I don't know much about what he
did that side of the family.
I didn't study much
but I know he had a lot of children.
I know that much.
>> So how do we get to Velti now?
>> Now, Velti is one of George Folsom's children.
Velti marries Hosea Walker,
which is my father's father.
Velti is my father's mother.
>> Do you know anything about the Walkers before Hosea?
>> Hosea's father was Jacob Walker, Jake for short.
Jake was to be said was from the West Indies,
Jamaica, was a slave, made it here,
of course, by boat
through New Orleans and came up through
that Gulf port and made
his way to Arkansas Hempstead County,
married a woman by the name of Phoebe.
I can't recall her last name at this time,
but he was a preacher.
Jacob Walker was a preacher.
Jamaican, very heavy accent from what I'm told.
Rode a white horse,
and traveled, and preached.
>> Circuit rider.
True sense of the word of a circuit rider preacher.
And that was Jacob Walker,
who was considered my father's grandfather
on my father's side.
Now, Jacob Walker had,
Polly Josephine was her name, not Phoebe,
it was Polly Josephine Gamble.
She was a Gamble. Her last name was Gamble.
So Polly Josephine Gamble married Jacob Walker,
and they had 15 children.
Was a lot of children at that time.
Died early.
They said it was from what they would call consumption,
back in those days.
And he was young, he was in his early 50s at that time,
but he was a circuit rider
preacher who wrote a white horse.
>> What denomination, Baptist?
>> It wasn't really said,
but I'm almost certain it
was probably a Baptist preacher.
>> Preached whoever gathered. [OVERLAPPING]
>> Whoever gathered around,
and he played guitar,
and sang, and preach.
And they said one of
his particular fortes would either be preaching,
and in the middle of a sermon,
a song would erupt,
and he would sing and then go back to preaching.
As he was inspired to sing while he preached,
he sang and then went back to preaching.
And it's almost like he sang his own song,
played his own instrument,
and preached his own message.
>> He made up his own songs?
>> It's like he created some of
his own songs during that time.
And so he was the true sense of
a word of a circuit rider preacher.
>> Wouldn't it be great if we have any of the words,
or the tunes, or recordings of them.
>> [LAUGHTER] Of some of the songs.
Now, my dad may have some of that,
I just haven't really questioned him in that depth as to,
do you know any of the songs he
sang or anything like that?
But there was also some some speculation,
I don't want to say it was speculation,
but I would say that it was said that he did
have some contact with the late Great Bishop C H Mason.
>> Really?
>> Yes. [OVERLAPPING]
>> Church of God in Christ.
>> In Memphis, wasn't it?
>> In Memphis. However,
there was a church that was started in Hope,
Arkansas at that particular time,
which is still considered Hempstead County,
where my great grandfather,
Jacob Walker, was there at that time.
And it is said that he met C H Mason,
and was part of the founding Church in Hope, Arkansas.
There was a founding
Church of God in Christ Church in Hope, Arkansas,
and they're saying that my great grandfather,
Jacob Walker was one of
the founders of that particular church.
>> You are a Bill Clinton connection to Hope, Arkansas?
>> Bill Clinton was there, yes.
That's where he was,
and maybe still is I don't know?
>> [inaudible]. [OVERLAPPING] [LAUGHTER]
>> And I did a little research at that time,
and I was doing a lot of seeking of the history of that,
when I entered into my public ministry to be a preacher,
and I was tracing all of that.
And I did find something in the archives that it did have
a Jacob Walker connected
to a Church of God in Christ Church in Hope, Arkansas.
And if that is indeed still on record,
that was my great grandfather
who walked with C H Mason at that time.
>> So Jacob is father of Hosea?
>> He's father of Hosea.
Hosea had a twin brother named Joel who died at birth.
And Hosea, he was my grandfather.
As a child, I don't remember him
much because I wasn't around him much,
but he was also a musician.
I have a family of musicians.
>> What kind, Blues or spiritual?
>> They played Blues and Gospel.
>> Gospel?
>> And particular forte is the guitar.
And a lot of his children,
including my father, were and are musicians,
if not all of them.
And the guitar is the particular instrument of choice.
And of course, myself,
I play instruments as well.
So it has come down through generations, but yes,
Hosea was one of the sons of Jacob Walker,
who is my grandfather.
He was a barber.
>> Hosea was a barber.
>> And where was he located?
>> He was located also in Hugo, Oklahoma.
That's where they all settled Hugo, Fort Towson,
McAlester, the whole Southeastern corner of Oklahoma.
That whole area there.
>> Now, by the time that Hosea comes along,
when was he born, approximately?
Well, I'm trying to tie it
in because we're going to talk about
the Tulsa Massacre in a few minutes, which was 1921.
He was born long before that, I believe.
>> He had to be. My dad is about 80 now.
>> So 80 would be back to '42.
>> Forty two or something like that.
So if that makes him 80 born in '42,
that means his dad was in his 20s when he had him.
So it somewhere around that time.
>> That he was born.
>> That he was born, yes.
>> And I've heard the stories
of some of them being there,
and leaving before it got out of hand and all of that.
>> So Hosea would have been born roughly around 1920?
>> Somewhere around that, it had to be.
I can't be accurate with that,
but if he had my dad in his 20s,
then he was definitely born in the 20s because
my dad was born in '42 or '43.
>> So did he own his own barber shop?
>> He actually did
his barbering on the back porch of the house.
The wrap around porches in the house in those days.
And he had his own barber chair and all of that,
and he used straight razor.
He was very accurate with his straight razor.
And nobody bothered him.
>> I bet.
>> Because he was very accurate with his straight razor.
>> We had barbers in Marietta who were
African American and all their customers were white.
What was his story, Black customers?
>> From what I understand,
it was mostly Black customers.
>> But not entirely?
>> But not entirely.
I can't be quoted on that.
>> And let's see.
>> But he was different.
He had a different approach to religion I would say.
His father was a preacher but then
he didn't really aspire-
>> To be a preacher.
>> To be a preacher or to
follow any of the tenants because
he was more of a realist and he saw
things that didn't add up so to speak.
One instance it was story that I
heard my dad shared with me one time about
they were walking in town to
get food at the general store or whatever.
And in between the alley of the store and
another building was a black person hanging from a rope.
And he walks by and sees it and
then there's people coming in
the other direction that were "Christians" or whatever.
And his response was,
if there's a God that all of you are
serving then why is this happening to our people?
Why is he allowing this?
>> Good question.
>> And he's saying, I can't deal with this.
If this is what your God
allows then I don't want anything to do with it.
So he had a different approach and
he in his own way dealt with what he had to deal with.
>> There's a historian by the name of Eugene Genovese,
he has written a lot about slavery and what have you.
And I think his most famous book
maybe is Roll, Jordan, Roll.
[LAUGHTER]
And he makes the argument that Christianity had
a strong appeal to enslaved people
precisely because they understood
how radical the message was.
It was going through regardless of
what white preachers may say.
And that we're all created equal in the eyes of God,
we're all created in the image of God and
that the message to
them I guess really made them realize that they were
somebody in a way
that slavery is telling them the opposite.
>> Sure.
>> That's a thesis at any rate.
I'm wondering what you
would think about that and
the Black church over the years.
>> I think it has
some validity and I can agree with it to
a certain extent but I think a lot of
what I believe and have gathered
through reading and historical research and taking
a deep dive into some of it was the idea of
the enslaved people reading about
the idea of escaping or
the escapism or being set free so to speak.
That is always an encouraging message
being able to think about one day being free.
And if you're hearing this story of
Moses and how the people
were set free and it was by God's doing.
And only God could have done that.
That would inspire someone that's enslaved.
That if God can do it for them He can do it for us.
And so my idea is that a lot of
the slaves had that idea, had that understanding.
And of course coming from where they came from in Africa,
they had a god.
>> Sure.
>> They had a religion.
>> Which was being suppressed when they got here.
>> Absolutely. And through the middle passage if you
made it you knew who God was.
>> Sure.
>> You knew who God was because you know of course,
what happened with all of that.
And for them to make it they had to be strong.
>> I can't imagine it.
>> They had to be strong and resilient and all of that.
We can go through all of the adjectives
and adverbs we can find but
the key thing is that is that
we made it and we're still making it.
>> There's a thesis that
Amazing Grace is actually written
by a person who once was
a slave trader but who converted later.
>> Sure.
>> But the whole tune, the music kind of
conveys that sense of the middle passage
that you can almost feel the groaning in that spiritual.
>> And it still resonates even today. It does.
>> That really Amazing Grace may have been written by
a white person but he really isn't the person,
he came out of that experience of the middle passage.
>> Absolutely. When you look at
that even then and you look at even in modern times.
Let's look at what happened in
South Carolina when the young fella
came in and shot up the Bible study.
>> Mother Emanuel.
And then here comes
the president at that time, Barack Obama.
And he stands up known not to be
a singer at all but what song does he sing?
Amazing Grace.
And it resonated and made an impact.
>> And even till this day still does make an impact.
So that song rightfully as you have stated written by
someone that's not Black
but still resonates with the Black community.
>> Barack Obama didn't have a chance.
A white mother and white grandparents.
>> But he knew what to say
when he went to Mother Emanuel.
>> He did. So we've talked about Hosea,
let's talk about your father now.
>> My father, interesting man
still with us, still living.
Born and raised in Oklahoma.
>> Is seeming younger and younger to me.
>> I know right? [LAUGHTER]
>> Raised in Oklahoma.
>> Raised in Oklahoma and starts
out as a Blues singer.
Him and his brothers form
a band called the Rock and Robins.
And it's archived you can find it.
He has a brother named Jasper,
brother named Ba, and his other brother James.
James Walker is actually in the Blues Hall of Fame.
He traveled [inaudible] review and all of that.
But they formed a band as
young men and they
traveled the country as the Rock and Robins.
My dad played the saxophone at that time.
>> Rock and Robins a song itself, isn't it?
[LAUGHTER]
>> And they traveled
and played their music and sang and did all of that,
and my dad got called to Vietnam.
Went to Vietnam, served, came back.
>> Called sounds like being called to the ministry.
You're talking about got drafted.
>> Got drafted into
the army and did tour 2 in Vietnam.
>> More than one.
>> I'm not certain of how many,
but I just know he went and came back different.
I mean, I wasn't born until 70.
I was born in 1970.
So it was around that time.
So he was probably back by then.
And when he came back,
he immediately went into ministry.
So Vietnam had an impact on him.
>> Tell tell how before we skip it ship by it,
the Tulsa massacre fits into your family.
>> So there's an Andrew Jackson that's a cousin that
was a Black physician
that stems from the yes of Jackson line.
He was a physician in Tulsa in the Greenwood District.
There's an intersection there,
Greenwood Archer and Pine,
they were at all connects there,
but that whole area.
He was the one physician who was
a general practitioner, but he was killed.
He was very successful.
>> In the massacre.
>> Killed in the massacre.
He was very successful.
>> Do know how that happened?
>> I don't know how he was killed.
Just knowing that it's recorded that Andrew Jackson was
the physician in our family and he was killed,
and we know that whole story.
[inaudible] 170 people or
something like that were killed in that.
>> Yeah, we're killed in that.
And there's still a few descendants still living,
but none of our family that are still living.
But there was an Andrew Jackson and there could be more.
But that's the only one that I have had told to me
that was a direct descendant from our family.
But that whole area, there's like a corridor.
When you come from the Southeast region of Oklahoma,
there's a corridor that leads up from Fort Tod, Hugo,
Ida Bell, you come up through McCallister,
and you hit Muskogee and you come up through Muskogee,
now you're in Broken Arrow, now you're in Tulsa.
So there was a corridor of how they traveled from
North to South to hit
the big cities and to do whatever commerce,
marketplace, whatever they did.
That area was called Little Africa.
It was with the original name of it because of
the influx and the population was heavily black.
But Andrew Jackson was a general practitioner.
He was a physician and was
the known physician in that area.
And that area was self contained.
The dollar circulated
>> It was a Black Wall Street, I think.
>> Exactly. It circulated
for for months before it even left the area.
So they were self contained,
and they were all wealthy. Pretty much.
But that's one that I know of the connection.
But my dad was sharing with me that there
are several family members,
but that's the only one that
I can remember that he shared.
It's probably I have something on paper that may be more.
But as of right now,
the one in depth that I do know was Andrew Jackson,
and of course, he's named after.
Former president answered.
[LAUGHTER].
>> That period after World War I was really
a horrible period in lots of ways there.
I know there was a riot in
Chicago maybe 1919 right after the war.
>> Oh, absolutely.
>> From just a kid that was out floating in
the lake and went across an imaginary line
between black and white sections and people went
berserk and all over the country. It was a bad time.
>> Yeah, it was a bad time.
>> So your father becomes a Baptist.
>> He's a Baptist preacher.
>> Preachers he still preaching today?
>> Still preaching today was licensed and ordained
by the late great ER Neil.
He was a pastor of the Greater Mount Olive,
the founding pastor of
the Greater Mount Oliive Baptist Church in Oklahoma City.
And so by this time,
my dad's there and he gets licensed and ordained
by ER Neil and he's ministering and he's doing the work.
And he takes a job doing civil service in Utah,
Ogden, Utah, that area Salt Lake City,
Ogden area Airforce Base there.
And he's there and he starts some churches
there while he's there in an area called Clearfield.
And he starts another one in Leighton,
the TruVne Baptist Church.
And so he's there well over 20 years
maybe until he retires from civil service.
>> Now, where did you grow up?
>> Oklahoma City.
>> Oh, you did.
>> Grew up in Oklahoma City.
And growing up in Oklahoma City
was interesting to say at least.
So my mom and my father divorced.
But I would visit often there.
But he preaches out maybe two to three churches.
When I say the term preaches out,
when a preacher in our community,
they used that term preach out a church,
that means they started it, they founded it.
They were the founder of that church.
And so he does that in Utah.
And then my aunt gets sick,
my grandmother's sister alt sister gets sick,
he moves back to
Oklahoma and starts caring for them in their old age.
And then he's called to a church in Oklahoma,
the New Bethel Baptist Church.
Of which he still pastors to this day.
>> Okay.
>> Yes.
>> Right.
>> And he's still preaching.
>> What about your mother?
>> Now, my mom's nurse.
She's retired at this time.
And but born and raised in Oklahoma City.
Her parents, that's interesting.
They were sharecroppers from Mississippi.
A town called Monte Plier,
Mississippi's right outside of Jackson.
They were sharecroppers there in Mississippi.
My mother's mother, Charlie Anne Jones,
who seventh grade education,
but had more meant coats in
her closet than the law allows.
She found ways to be productive.
And she found ways to acquire.
And it was all legal.
But you wouldn't know
that she would have acquired what she
acquired until you sat
down and had a conversation with her.
But she taught me and I'll get back to my dad,
but I'm just on it right now.
She taught me how to plant
a seed and to nurture it and watch it grow.
And so I didn't know it then as
a little child in her backyard,
she's teaching me the laws of sowing and reaping
in which I end up using in my preaching ministry.
But I learned it from my grandmother and
my grandfather of how to break
up the fallow ground and plant the seed and cover it.
Water it, pick the weeds out from around
it occasionally when it starts to grow.
The whole concept, the whole process
I learned that from her.
And she would sit on the porch with me and share
stories of how it was when she was a child growing up.
>> That's wonderful.
>> In Mississippi.
That's my mother's side,
that's a whole another interview there, man.
So I'm catching the whole slavery from
both the stories of
enslaved grandparents and
great grandparents from both sides.
And as unique as the concept of slavery
was from different sides of the family,
I'm getting different views of how slavery was.
But that's a whole another interview that's going to take
some more time to dive and take a deep dive with that.
>> Well, maybe we have to do another interview.
>> Yeah. Maybe we'll do that.
>> So my father.
>> He's a minister to this day?
>> Baptist preacher to this day.
>> And Vietnam is important in his story.
>> It's in his story, yes.
>> And then you grow up
and why don't you just talk about you're in Oklahoma?
>> I'm in Oklahoma.
>> You grew up there?
>> I grew up there.
>> Go through school.
>> How do you get into the military?
>> I get into the military.
I went to high school did very well in
high school was an athlete
had several scholarships to play ball.
Lot of different schools,
University of Hawaii,
University of Memphis, Memphis State,
North Texas State,
Oklahoma State University, all these colleges.
I played Summer League for AAU.
And I also played
for the fellowship of Christian athletes.
I traveled the country during
the summer with summer camps
with fellowship of Christian athletes.
And that particular summer
after my senior year of high school,
traveled extensively with a lot of basketball camps,
fellowship of Christian athletes and got back
and time was winding
up to sign a letter of intent for scholarships.
>> For basketball?
>> For basketball. Exactly. And I made all city,
all state, all of that. It's all archives.
And I went to Midwest City High School.
And got back a little late in the summer.
Time for school to start.
I hadn't made a decision
of where I wanted to go to college.
And it was important,
but I thought I had time.
>> Well, not everybody's ready
at age 18 to go to college.
>> Right. I was though,
because I wanted to play ball.
I wanted to, do all of that.
And so a lot of the colleges that were division 1
that I really desired to
go to they had already filled all scholarship slots.
So they were like, Well, yeah, you can still come on.
You'll be red shirted though, for a year,
you can still practice with
the team and do all that and drive when I was like,
I want to play.
And so I ended up signing with a junior college there for
that one year and broke my ankle.
Game six broke it in two places.
I was out for the rest of the season.
>> Which college did you go?
>> It was Rose State Junior College.
Out for the rest of the year.
I was an econ major at the time.
The school year had ended and I was trying to
make some decisions in life
because I felt like I don't know if I have
a play at that level again because mentally,
I don't believe I was ready.
Because psychologically, I was thinking, Oh,
if I jump high again,
I'm going to come down break ankle again.
But I couldn't get past that.
>> I tell you did it. You're going
up for a rebound and came down.
>> Yeah. I went up and blocked the guy's shot and I
landed on someone's foot and it turned.
I didn't land on anything flat.
I landed on a one of the guys, and it just turned.
And you could hear it crack across the gym.
But I joined the Navy after I got healed up.
And that was I wanted to do something with
my life and I needed to do something fast.
And I said I'll join the military and I joined
the United States Navy and became a combat medic.
So I served also with the Marine Corps as well.
So did that went to Desert Storm.
So this is what we're talking about.
>> So we're in the 90s [inaudible].
>> Yes, so we're in the early '90s.
So I go.
My name comes up,
my billet number comes up, combat medic.
They first called called me in I was going to Panama at
first because around that same time that was
that whole Noriega contra,
all of that was going on.
And the Sandinistas that whole thing.
And that was going to be my first deployment.
And then whatever happened with that,
maybe about three weeks later, they changed.
They said, No, you're not going to Panama.
Something else is going on,
is brewing up in the Middle East.
That's where you're going to Iraq and Kuwait.
So I went to Camp Lajeune, North Carolina,
and the Marine Corps base there second Marine Division.
And I trained there for
about eight weeks with the Marine Corps Unit
and got shipped out to Desert Storm.
And was there from, we get there in the,
how are they season?
It must have been October, November.
>> I can't remember now what time of the year.
>> We went early, though.
October November sometime.
>> Yeah. It was right around the first of the year.
>> It was in '90 when I went.
That was in 1990.
>> Yeah. Before the war began?
>> Yes. I was there in '90.
And was there in '90 and then I got injured there.
>> So you got the dates on Desert Storm August
of 1990 to February of 1991?
>> Yeah. So I was there around October ish,
and landed and was right in the middle of all of it.
>> And that was when Iraq went into Kuwait.
This is the George Bush administration.
>> So we're there,
locked and loaded and ready to go.
And we're there.
And I get injured there
and then I get shipped out.
>> How did you get injured?
>> It's a different story.
>> You don't want to talk about it?
>> No.
>> Okay. But you got injured?
>> Injured there and was shipped out to Italy,
there was a Naval Hospital in Sigenela, Italy.
And the intent was to do the surgery,
and they were going to send me to the USS Mercy.
There's a hospital ship, The USS Mercy,
and there was The USS Comfort.
It was the two ships.
The USS Mercy was there in the Gulf but at that time,
it had gotten real hot and
heavy with artillery so they had to
move the hospital ships
further off the coast, out of the way.
And so now, I couldn't
go there from Italy so they
ended up sending me to Germany.
>> I guess the hot and heavy of the war as I look it up,
January 17th, of 1991.
It was like through February of '91
>> Yeah. Because I ended up getting shipped back.
I was in Germany for a while and then I got
shipped back from Germany to the Continental US,
the Andrews Air Force Base,
and then ultimately to Bethesda Naval Hospital.
Around March or May I ended up making my way there to
around May of '91.
I was at the Bethesda Naval Hospital
and I got several surgeries there.
>> Okay. That's where the Naval Academy, yes, it is in.
>> The Naval Academy is in Annapolis,
Maryland but the Bethesda Naval Hospital,
consider the elite hospital for the military.
That's where he's in the presidents.
So Bathads the naval.
And so that's where I was for
some time until I was discharged out of the military.
I was discharged in '94.
>> '94.
>> '94. The surgeons,
so they couldn't really release me,
because in essence, I was really trying to
get myself back to full duty because I wanted to stay in.
But I just couldn't with all of the surgeries that I
continued to have just so that I could walk properly.
>> Sure. So you're there for three years?
>> Yeah. At least.
And then ultimately received a medical discharge
from the United States Navy.
And I leave there, leave the military,
and now I'm a veteran and young veteran.
I'm 23, 24 years old at the time.
And I'm on my way back home
to Oklahoma and I stop in Georgia on my way back home.
And I had a cousin that
was attending Clark Atlanta University at the time.
And I call him because I stop and get gas,
I'm in a Hertz Pinsky haul truck or whatever,
with all my stuff in it.
And I stop somewhere in Atlanta and pull off to get gas,
and I call them because at that time, it's pay phones.
So I'm putting money in the pay phone,
and I'm calling him, and I say,
hey, I'm just passing through.
And actually, it's my cousin Grover.
He's named after my father
whose name is Grover Cleveland Walker,
who was named after the President Grover Cleveland.
So my cousin that was living in
Atlanta at the time he was Grover,
but he wasn't Grover Cleveland,
he's Grover Marvell Walker.
He's at Clark Atlanta at the time.
I called him. I said,
I'm passing through, man.
Just passing through.
He says, but, where are you at?
I says, I'm on such and such street.
He says, stay right there, I'll be there.
So he meets me,
and we go have some chicken wings or something.
That was in '94 in May and that May of 1994
has turned into right now July 2022.
>> Is that right? You never left?
>> Never left.
So I turned in the truck and started my life.
>> So what made you want to stay?
>> I think it was beyond me.
And what I mean by that
is there was something that my cousins and I,
we had it packed somewhat before we left
Oklahoma that we would all go to
HBCUs and do all of that.
So his older sister, Aretha Walker,
she was the brains behind all of it,
and she would fill out all of
the paperwork to get admitted into the colleges.
She's a graduate of Miles College in Texas,
The Great Debaters,
that movie Denzel Washington was made from.
So she went to Miles.
He went to Clark, Atlanta.
He has a younger brother named Napoleon.
He goes to Tuskegee.
So I am saying, okay,
I'm going to go to a HBCU,
but then I got sidetracked with athletics,
and then I ended up joining the military.
But I ended up staying
because I looked at Atlanta and I said,
okay, if there's ever a place I want to go to in HBCU,
it should be here in Atlanta.
There's four or five of them right here in the state.
Morehouse, Morris Brown, Clark,
Spelman, ITC, all these HBCUs,
and so we begin to
talk about education and some other things,
and a lot of it too was mainly that, okay,
I did the whole military thing,
what am I going back to Oklahoma for?
Like what? You've already left home.
What are you going back to?
And what are you going back there for?
>> Agree with mama.
>> Right. And so that it stuck with me,
that thought, those questions that he asked.
And it made sense to continue to live my life
out and to live it outside of the bounds of Oklahoma.
>> Yeah. You'd have left home.
>> I'd left home already so
where am I going back to live?
Maybe to retire maybe or something,
but not to go back to try to make a living.
>> So you're thinking I'm going to go
to one of these colleges?
>> Went to Morehouse.
>> Okay. It's a good school.
>> Yes, liberal arts school.
And I put it to you this way.
When I look at my high school,
Midwest City High School,
I look at Morehouse College,
I look at the United States Navy,
and I look at all of those institutions
combined and how it has moulded me into
the person that I am today in Ministry.
And so I've been afforded
a great opportunity to preach and pastor.
So I enter into ministry,
I enter into ministry in, I'll say '93.
>> '93 before you left the Navy?
>> No. It'd be 94.
No, we would say, it'd be '93 '94.
It was 94.
It had to be '94 when I got out of the Navy.
So when I got out, the thoughts were there.
I could hear the call, so to speak.
>> Well, you probably did a whole lot of thinking during
those three years while you were recuperating.
>> Yes. I had a lot of time to recoup a lot of time.
And my dad had told me at one time,
he says, don't become
a preacher just because I'm a preacher.
And he encouraged me even not to get
in the military. He said, don't do it.
And maybe it was because of his experience
in Vietnam and all of that.
And in my mind I said was all this,
there's not no war going to happen, man.
Wars are things of the past.
The first year I'm in, I got in at '89,
so the next very next year
I'm right smack dab in the middle of a war.
So '94, I'm out.
I'm contemplating ministry now.
I'm looking at it,
and I'm saying this is something.
I already know the rudiments of preaching.
I already understand the concept of
sermon preparation because I've watched my dad.
And I've listened to him, studied him.
I have read his message.
Till this day, I still read
messages that he has written from 1972,
1973, and they're still relevant today.
And I enter into my ministry,
accept the call into ministry,
and I'm traveling and I'm preaching around the world.
And I'm an evangelist.
I got licensed and ordained at Wings of Faith Church.
At that time, it was Wings of Faith Baptist Church
under the leadership of Bishop Dreyfus C Smith.
He licensed and ordained me '95, '96.
>> This is in Atlanta?
>> In Atlanta '95, '96.
>> And you're still going to Morehouse?
>> Yes. At the time.
You got '95, '96.
No, I don't get the mouse until the 2000.
So but I'm preaching.
I'm an evangelist.
>> And how do you travel around the world?
>> Interesting.
>> What pays the bills? Seven.
>> What's this now?
Mind you, I'm a single man.
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah. At this time.
So I have no wife. I have no children.
So I have no responsibilities, really.
I'm working for Marietta at the time.
Now, this is the interesting thing that has happened in
my life and and I think it's not worthy.
All of my life, I've had people say,
maybe you're the luckiest man in the world,
how do you get this?
How do you acquire?
Maybe you're so lucky every time I turn around,
man, you're getting this, you're getting that.
I've grown to know that it's called the favor of God.
As a child, my mom would tell me
that and I don't remember it,
just vaguely, but the kids would sit on
our front porch and wait on me to come outside.
And I vaguely remember it,
but my mom she tells the story to
this day that they would come and wait.
She knew I was a natural born leader even
then because they would wait on
the porch for me to come
outside and say, well, what are going to do today?
Where are we going today?
They would wait on me for that.
And so with that,
these leadership skills, I was always out in front.
I was always leading. I was always pointing and saying,
go and, and all of that.
But as I entered into ministry,
and I begin to travel,
I worked for Marietta at the time.
I get out of the military.
I'm working for Marietta and God giving me favor,
I would say that with upper level management.
And they promoted me very quickly.
I came in doing security.
Anybody get out of the military, you can work.
Anybody doing security.
So I'm doing security for Marietta at the time,
and then they promote me very quickly.
And I had friends that were from all over.
In the military, you're connected, the different people.
So I started attending the church
and I started meeting other people.
And one thing led to another.
This one had a cousin that was from Kansas.
This one has a cousin from North Carolina.
Oh, my cousin, they'll let you come preach.
I'll call him.
And that's how it happened.
I knew someone from Trinidad Tobago,
I need to call my Bishop.
My Bishop needs to hear you preach.
They call their bishop where they grew
up in Trinidad. And they call them.
They pay for the ticket,
they pay for the hotel the whole time I'm there
and I'm preaching in Trinidad and Tobago for 10 days,
and Jamaica and Cayman and all of these places.
So I get this opportunity to preach and I'm
traveling and I'm doing mission work and all of that.
I'm still in my 20s.
Think about this now.
Still in my 20s, man.
I'm still a youngster still trying to figure life out.
So I'm doing all of this preaching,
and then I get called into
the pastorate which is
something totally different from being an evangelist.
So now I'm over the flock of people.
So this is where ponders come in.
>> Was what you were waiting up.
>> This is where we're going.
>> Tell that story.
First of all, talk about visiting
that church for the first time and the history of
that whole area where the ponders once had a plantation?
>> I'll put it to you this way.
I finished a service that I
had and I was having church at the hotel where I worked.
>> The Marietta.
>> At the Marietta.
So the manager said,
I see what you're doing.
You don't have to pay for this.
Just do what you're doing for God.
Don't even worry about it.
So I was using the ballroom at the Marietta.
>> They had a free ball room.
>> You're the luckiest guy in the world. Right?
>> Yeah. [LAUGHTER]
>> So I'm using the ball room for
free and people are coming,
but I lived in Smyrna at the time.
So I'm traveling from Smyrna all the way
down past the airport.
And I'm having church so I'm there's like a disconnect.
>> And why are you living in Smyrna?
>> That's where I was living when I was working.
>> For the Marietta?
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Well, no. That's not.
I lived in College Park
at first, was worked for Marietta.
Then I moved to Smyrna. I get married.
Meet my wife and
we can't live in a little apartment for so long,
so we get us a house in Smyrna.
And she's from Cobb County.
Born and raised.
So we moved into familiar territory for her.
Now, I'm not from Georgia,
so it didn't matter where I lived long as I was with her.
>> Katava, sorry.
>> So I meet Katava at a church.
And we meet at a church and when I
saw her and she saw me, that was it.
Eight months later, we get married.
That was 22 years ago.
>> Well. Okay.
>> And we've been married ever since.
>> So year 2000.
>> So I'm preaching now.
I meet her.
We get married at 2000.
So I'm preaching and I
meet her and so I'm called into the pastory.
She's a great singer.
She's anointed to singer.
>> Go ahead and talk about her a little bit.
>> Well, she's she's come
from a church background as well.
Her father is a preacher.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Which church?
>> Church of God in Christ.
So there's a link with that and the whole.
>> But she's in Cobb County.
>> In Cobb County.
>> I know Greater Community Church
of God in Christ. Which church?
>> She was in Emmanuel Church of God in Christ.
They're no longer in existence,
but that was her father's church.
>> Where was that?
That was in Smyrna?
>> No. That was in Marietta Canton Road at the time.
>> Canton Road.
>> Yeah. In Marietta.
>> Go on.
>> So that I meet her
and it's almost like a perfect setup because she
knows how all of this works.
In terms of I'm a pastor,
she's in a pastor's house she
knows I'm marrying a preacher.
So I already know what to do.
>> Time to stop being an event settle down to a church.
>> So now I'm a pastor.
I'm starting getting ready.
I start this church with
going back and forth to the airport.
And I'm frustrated on Sunday morning.
We have our early service.
The service is very early,
and then we would leave and we'd go back home to Smyrna.
But that particular day,
I'm frustrated because I'm like,
we're driving all of this
back and forth and back and forth.
And I I go into prayer and I said, God I said,
what is it that you would have me to do and
where would you have me to be in this pasture?
He says, I've called you to
this area here in Cobb County.
This is where I want you to do the work.
I said, okay, well, I need to
find a church in this area.
So I go to Smyrna.
I'm driving around and I pull into this park.
This is exactly how it happens.
I pull into the park.
I get out of the car.
I'm walking around the park,
and I'm praying and I'm asking God.
And with tears in my eyes,
I'm saying God, I need to help me.
You called me the pastor.
I didn't call myself.
You called me to do this work.
So I need somewhere to pasture these people.
Because the hotel is not going to work.
That's going to last
forever for what you're calling me to do.
He says, get in the car,
put it in reverse,
pull out, put it in drive.
Exactly like this.
I'm hearing it.
And he says, now, look up and
there's a church right there in front of me.
Never noticed it.
It was directly across the street from the park.
He says, Now pull in there and go in.
I pull in there and I go in.
I walk in the church,
there's maybe eight, 10 people there max.
They're all Caucasian.
I go to the front of the church and I sit down.
And I'm listening to a guy,
I think he's teaching like a Sunday school lesson.
He has a book, a Sunday school book.
And they finish.
And so he asked me some questions.
I introduced myself, and I told them who I
was and I said, I'm Christopher Walker.
I'm a preacher and he was like,
Oh, wow, you're a preacher.
I was like, yeah.
They says, "Well, wow."
And they said, "Well, we don't have a pastor", and I
was looking around like, "Okay."
My intent was just to use
the facility for the church that
had already created and founded.
He came to me and he says, can I have your number?
I say sure you have my number.
I give him my number.
He says, we're going to have
a meeting in a couple of weeks.
I want to see if you can come to the meeting.
I was like, okay.
Sure. So he calls me.
He says, bring your wife.
So I brought my wife to the meeting and they're having
this meeting and they're
asking all these questions
and they're voting on some things.
It was just totally irrelevant to me
because it was church business but I'm like,
I'm included in on this?
Why does he want me in for this?
So then all of a sudden, he says, okay.
We now are going to vote in
the new pastor of this church.
So by this time my ears are perked up.
He says, we want to vote in pastor Christopher Walker as
the new pastor of Ponders Avenue Baptist Church.
All in favor say aye.
All of them raised their hand aye.
I was like, oh, wow.
I looked at my wife I said,
do you see what just happened?
I said, can you believe this?
So I sat there and just I waited.
They voted me in as the pastor.
I had preached there I think a week prior.
They had asked me to preach and I preached
Matthew 28, go ye therefore.
That was the message. Go. And I
guess that message inspired him to make the pastor.
So I was voted in the pastor after that.
>> It sounds like that was your trial
to receive out the building.
[LAUGHTER]
>> I probably what it was. Probably so.
But I was voted in that night and probably seven months,
eight months later started growing rapidly very fast.
People were coming from everywhere.
>> Do you know how unique this is
all white church calling you to be a pastor?
>> That's very unique.
And they turn everything over.
Then that's when I start doing
a deep dive in the history of that church.
>> So it's called Ponders Avenue Baptist
but it's on Bank Street and Pine Hill.
>> So in Bank Street Street in
Pine Hill in Smyrna, Georgia.
>> So they'd already moved out of Atlanta.
>> They moved out of Atlanta off of
Ponders Avenue in Atlanta.
>> But they still called themselves Ponders Avenue.
>> Baptist Church. Exactly.
>> So you're growing by leaps and bounds now.
>> And then I started taking
a deep dive in the history of the church.
How it was founded, all of that.
I can't remember who founded it in particular but I do
know that they were direct links to Ephraim G. Ponders,
who was the slave master who
had the Ponders plantation in Atlanta.
Called the Ponders house.
It was the Ponders plantation.
He had a plantation and he had
enslaved people on his plantation.
>> I did a little research on my own.
>> I'm sure you did.
>> At the Georgia archives on I
guess their website there's
a picture of the Ponder house.
>> Yes.
>> After it had been shelled during the Civil War.
>> Yes.
>> And the picture was taken by
a famous photographer named George
M. Bernard who took
a lot of pictures of the Atlanta campaign.
The union side of what was going on.
But the little caption under it says that there were
65 enslaved people at the Ponder plantation?
>> Yes.
>> Of course prior to the Civil War.
You might tell about Henry Flipper?
>> Yes. Henry Flipper was
a descendant of an enslaved mom and dad that were
enslaved on that plantation who later was accepted to
West Point Military College and was
the first African American graduate
from West Point Military Academy.
He came from that plantation of the Ponders plantation.
And so when you look at the history of
that they never allowed
an African American to preach at that particular church.
Let alone be the pastor.
So I made history as the first African American to
actually preach in the Ponders Avenue Baptist Church.
And then later became the first African American to
ever pastor Hondas Avenue Baptist Church.
>> But as long as it was in
Atlanta no African American preachers.
>> None of that.
>> Are members either, I think you said?
>> No.
>> No members. So it was completely segregated. Yes.
>> Now, do you know why
they moved to Smyrna from Atlanta?
>> From what I'm reading it was a lot of
urban renewal Hud had come in government,
the housing, urban development all of that started taking
the front seat or
the forefront of development in Atlanta at that time.
And they migrated to Smyrna.
And as you know at that particular time
Smyrna in the '50s and in the '60s was the hub for
white supremacy and the KKK and all of that.
And so maybe they felt comfortable to migrate there.
>> Because it's a white church.
>> It's a white church.
It would suit, it would fit.
And that's what I gathered just through
the reading in the history of it.
The owned quite a bit of
land and they end up selling a lot of it over time.
>> Atlanta and Smyrna or Atlanta?
>> In Smyrna.
>> Do you know other than the Flipper's,
anything else about the descendants
of the enslaved people?
>> No. I haven't taken a deep dive into that.
That's one of the things I desired to do is to
really take a deep dive and try to gather
more historical content as
it involves them because I
know there's some more rich history
that's involved with that.
But I did remember reading that.
The slave masters themselves Ephraim,
he had a brother and they set up
in the East Point area, the buggy works.
They made buggies,
the carriages and they were famous for that.
And of course private slaves were making all of
that stuff for them but they sold them.
They had a shop where they sold buggies.
Until this day there's
a buggy works in East Point and it's from them.
And you can see that that's documented as well.
But it was called buggy works and they made
the buggies and the carriages there in East Point.
And even to this day that same area it's like
an office complex now
and I think it's still named buggy works.
But they're not making buggies
over there anymore, of course.
I think it's an office tech complex
or something like that in East Point
right in the heart Main Street, East Point, Georgia.
>> I'm trying to pull it up
that Flipper's father he was a skilled craftsman.
>> That's right.
>> And he opened a shoe shop on
Decatur Street after the Civil War.
>> Isn't that amazing.
>> Yeah. And then another son
Joseph became a bishop of
the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
>> The AME Church.
>> AME Church.
>> Wow.
>> Served as a chancellor of
Morris Brown University in Atlanta.
>> Look at that. Isn't that amazing?
>> It is.
>> The history of that plantation,
I know it goes a whole lot deeper,
but there's some other archival information
that goes back to even General Sherman
visiting and having dinner there.
>> It must have been after it was shared.
>> Yeah. But it was said,
a few people that were sharing
some of the history with me
about that said he'd come through there.
>> Some people in the church
were well aware of that history?
>> Yes. There were a few older people there in
the early mid '80s.
And I only had a few conversations with them about that.
And I don't know if it was it made for
a touchy subject for them, maybe.
I was just fishing for information, but for them,
they may have felt a little uncomfortable sharing,
enslaved history to African American pastor.
I don't know if they felt comfortable with sharing it.
So they didn't really go into any details a lot of it.
>> Now Ponders in at least on the website,
it's spelled without an S,
but you were pronouncing it with the Ponders avenue.
So the church itself had an S.
>> It had an S on it.
Yeah, it had an S.
But I do believe his name was Ponder.
>> Yeah.
>> Ephraim was his first name.
>> So the Ponders Avenue
may have been like there should have been,
a possessive in there. Ponders Avenue.
>> Right.
>> Okay. So it's a Baptist Church.
>> It's a Baptist Church.
>> But it doesn't stay at Baptist Church.
>> Doesn't stay at Baptist Church.
>> A little bit about the history
you're talking about is growing by leaps.
>> Yeah. It's growing and
people are coming from everywhere.
>> Now, are they mainly black or mainly White?
>> They're Black.
>> Okay. So the population suddenly becomes very diverse.
>> Yes.
>> And then overwhelmingly African American?
>> Yes. Absolutely.
>> And what happens to the white members at that time?
>> At that time,
two of them I remember one of the deacons.
He made a statement about leaving.
But he didn't go into depth.
It was more of a okay, I'm leaving now.
And that was it.
Like, I didn't anything else,
numbers were changed and all that.
And there was some some things that were
happening that I could tell
that brought some uncomfortableness.
Because you have to be mindful
that This church was
I don't want to say predominantly White.
It was all White.
>> When you became the pastor?
>> I became the pastor.
So I don't know what they thought.
>> What they expected you to do.
>> Right. Who was going to come in
the doors after I became the pastors.
So all African Americans came into the congregation,
and then of course,
they were were outnumbered, so to speak.
And maybe that was the feeling.
We're outnumbered now.
I'm just speculating. I don't know.
But I had a meeting.
They called a meeting.
This is maybe eight,
nine months into the pastor.
I get a meeting.
And it's only two people that show up for the meeting.
They called me and said,
we want to have a meeting.
>> But only two people showed up.
>> Only two people showed up.
And they had a box.
Lights were out, only one light was on.
I was like, what is this?
Now, mind you, I had started getting
some strange calls during this time.
And there's a lot of this I
didn't share with the congregation.
>> They were threatening?
>> Yeah. Some of them were threatening calls.
Using the N word and all of that.
>> My goodness.
>> Don't know who it was,
you know, didn't bother to trace a star 69 and all.
I wasn't into all of that.
But it was maybe some scare tactics, I don't know.
>> Now, we're talking what year now '90s.
>> We're talking 2000.
>> Beyond 2000.
>> We're in the 2000 now.
>> Wow.
>> And I'm getting these calls.
And so finally, I get a call and say,
we need to have a meeting, so I'm having a meeting.
So I'm there and two people show up a man and a woman.
They were part of the church, and they were White.
They were two of the original members.
And they said it looks like you know what you're doing.
Looks like you have a handle on this.
It's growing. You're doing well.
Here's everything.
And they had a box.
It was the bank book, the deed,
the insurance papers, everything.
>> They're leaving and they're
leaving all the records with you.
>> They left everything with me. And that was it.
>> So no more White members?
>> We still had a couple, but it wasn't from that group.
So that original group is no longer there.
>> That's the strangest story, the whole thing.
What did they expect.
>> But till this day, here's
even the more strange part till this day,
I don't know where they are and how to find it.
My dad made a statement one time and said,
there's a scripture in the Bible son.
I want you to find it.
He says, Be careful how you entertain
strangers because they can be angels unaware.
It's in the Bible.
And it has stuck with me that one scripture.
Because til this day, I don't know where they are.
>> I don't know where that scripture is either.
>> It's in there.
>> Can you go back and find out.
>> It's there.
>> Well, you may have been the angel
that walked in the door.
>> Well, they may have been
the angels that gave me the church.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
That you can't find it anymore.
>> I can't find anymore.
So we're there and we begin to
grow and it's no longer a baptist church?
>> Yeah. Okay. Well, how long did
it take before you changed the style of worship?
Because I know the Black churches
that I've been in are significantly different.
They go longer for one thing.
So how long did it take before you made it more
like a traditional African-American church service?
>> Not long.
>> Thanks, sir.
>> Because we were really already doing
it while they were there.
Now, the message was the same.
It's the music and the charisma.
All of that is what makes the service different.
>> I thought they weren't ready for that guitar.
>> They weren't ready.
They weren't ready for the guitar, and the organ,
and the drums because they didn't even have
drums in the church when I got there.
So we added drums [OVERLAPPING].
So here comes the drums.
Here comes the guitar,
comes the bass guitar, comes the organ.
Here comes the keyboard,
which is generating a totally different sound.
You're talking, know
space age type sounds coming out of there.
>> I've got your scripture.
>> Is it in Hebrews somewhere.
>> You're exactly right,13th chapter second verse. I see.
If you can go with the new international version,
"Do not forget to show hospitality to
strangers for by so doing,
some people have shown
hospitality to angels without knowing it."
>> There you go.
>> Hebrews 13:2.
[LAUGHTER]
Let's say King James Bible.
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers for
thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
>> There you go.
>> How about that?
I'll have to remember that one.
[LAUGHTER]
A nice thing about the Internet.
>> Yeah. So we're doing that and we're doing ministry
and we're growing and God blesses us.
And until this day even to this day,
I should say, God is still blessing us.
So we're talking 29 years preaching.
And we're looking at 20 years of pastoring now.
So I just didn't start doing this at 7:30 last night.
[LAUGHTER]
>> No. When did the threatening calls stop?
>> They stopped, yeah.
They did stop.
They only lasted maybe about a month or two.
And the calls would come through would be late at night.
It was always to send the message
and to try to invoke fear of some sort.
Maybe for me to walk away or to quit or whatever.
>> [inaudible] Found in Smyrna was zoned to
keep black people out of Smyrna.
>> Yeah. And so
the Rose Garden area of Smyrna
is considered the African American community.
>> And right outside of the city limits, historically?
>> Yes. So the church that
I passed or it was right in the heart.
I know you're talking two or three blocks from City Hall.
They walked the City Hall from our church.
So I know that it may have ruffled some feathers, maybe.
I don't know, but maybe.
But I did get calls and fear tactics.
I didn't report it.
I didn't even share it with the congregation at
the time because I didn't want any fear to spread.
Because you know what fear is.
You know the acronym, it's false evidence appearing real.
So whatever it was saying to me
on the phone, it was false.
Evidence appearing real.
So I didn't take heed to
anything that they were saying and I
didn't know who it was.
I didn't even investigate it.
Not, if it would have gone to the length
of vandalism of any sort,
then I may have would have taken action in
a way to try to curtail it in some way.
>> I'd be careful if we walked
into the church on a Sunday morning.
>> Yeah. So we've always
had that in our community.
We've always had that.
That part.
That's always been in our community.
The threats. The all of that.
So it wasn't new. It wasn't new.
>> May just be that it's reported more of these days.
>> Yeah. And then there's a lot of evidence of how it
can be traced to who did it and all of that.
But I just didn't really I mean,
I took it serious enough to consider it and I
documented times and dates of when it happened.
Because if it would've went any further,
then I would have had documented evidence.
But it didn't get past that.
So I was prepared to move forward if it, in fact,
would have led to
the vandalism or any type of
terroristic threats or anything like that.
The threats weren't really terroristic in that way.
It was more so in word leave,
in word, we don't want you.
That type of thing.
So I was like, okay.
Yeah. But it wasn't it wasn't anything to
that was a direct threat
of what they were going to do or
something that was going to happen.
And there's a bomb at such and such,
and we're going to do this during your service.
It wasn't none of that happened.
And then we prayed harder and trusted God.
And the rest of history.
>> Now, how did the move to
Alley Springs Road come about?
>> Alley Springs was an interesting move.
We were looking for larger space to
expand and really go forth
with the vision that God had given us.
Because we want to do the school,
we want to do some affordable housing
and some other things,
and we need property to do it.
So we met with some people that had
real influence one and by the name of Darryl Price,
who at the time, I think he still is is
the president of the on Day Association.
And we started putting our heads
together and he shared
with me that property and the availability of it.
And the acreage and how it's
available and you look at how you can build
this and do that and do this on that property.
So it appealed to me.
So at this time, we're there presently and we're
working on several projects even right now.
To build it out and to do
some affordable housing there
on that particular property.
>> And you moved there, what about a year ago?
>> Yeah. Right in the heart of COVID.
I mean, man, it was tough because COVID,
it changed and altered everyone's life.
I say it like this COVID was the great revealer.
It revealed a lot of things to a lot of people.
And we knew that if there was ever a time for us to move,
let's strike while the iron is high.
Where, everybody's sleeping,
where everybody is complaining,
where everybody's doing everything else with COVID.
Let's make this move. We did it.
So we're there now and we're growing.
It's a larger facility.
>> COVID didn't affect your membership?
>> It didn't affect it.
Initially, it did.
It affected everybody? It did.
It affected our membership.
>> Well, I think it gave people
a chance to break with habit.
And consider why am I doing what I'm doing.
>> It affected every church in its own way.
When we transitioned over,
it was a larger facility,
but there was the need was there.
For the larger facility because of what we were
endeavoring to do in the way of school.
>> Are neighbors okay with affordable housing?
>> We as a matter of fact,
we are in that stage now.
But what we're doing in
the way of affordable housing is going to
be for active adults, 55 and over.
So there's not going to be a problem with that,
because you're not going to have to deal with children.
You're not going to have to deal with that
element, so to speak.
But it's for 55 and over,
and we're working on some things
to collaborate with the county
and some other things that we're endeavoring to do.
I'm not a liberty to share right now, but it's a very
sharp capital-gaining entrepreneurial concepts
that we're invoking into.
>> Alley Springs Road, Marietta,
is that Zurich or Richardson's
District Richardson County Commissioners.
>> We're working and we're going to
be doing some great work.
And along with Lisa Cupid and
all the others it's a collaborative effort.
And I'm just excited about what's next,
and the path forward, you know.
>> What's your membership now?
Membership now, we probably have right at
about 100 people on Sundays.
And it's going very well. It's growing.
That church could probably see maybe five, 600.
So it looks empty.
But when you do the head count, you know?
>> Are you doing virtual services as well as in person?
>> Yes. We're combined.
Yes. So we stream live on Sundays.
But we have more people coming in than we expected.
Coming to the in-person service now.
Which is amazing because I wasn't
expecting the people to start.
Coming back even with this current surge
of COVID 19 and this other thing, Monkey Pox.
>> And how did it change from
Baptist to Church of God in Christ to Independent.
>> What we did was
the Baptist when it was Ponders Avenue Baptist Church.
We knew that we were not "a Baptist church."
Now, we believe in the same tenets and that when we
baptize and full immersion in the water.
And it's Matthew 28
of the Gospel of Matthew Chapter 28 when he says,
Go you into all the world,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the name of
the Son and name of the Holy Spirit.
So we held on to that tradition.
But there were some other things
that we were engaging in and
discovering as a congregation that was very charismatic.
And it didn't suit or fit the Baptist tradition.
So we couldn't call ourselves a Baptist church.
If on the sign, it would be false advertising.
[LAUGHTER]
So we didn't call ourselves a Baptist church.
And so at that particular time,
we were like, Okay,
let's sit down t's put our heads together.
Now, we were very familiar
with the Church of God and Christ,
which is the Pentecostal Holiness Church.
And some of what we engaged in in the way of
our worship experience fell
along the same lines in terms of
what they believe their statements of faith,
their tenets, all of that.
And so we joined.
And became a part and played
integral roles in that organization.
And I was blessed to move up in
the organization quite fast.
And then was positioned in a very key position in
the organization rather quickly.
And I got a call.
Someone had called me one time and says, "Hey,
Pastor Ward, I heard that you were
a superintendent in the Church of God in Christ."
I said, Yeah. He says,
"Didn't you just join this Church of God?
How did you get to become, man,
you're the luckiest guy in the world?"
I'm hearing that again.
But I was elevated to that status.
That that's the status of, like,
an overseer where you oversee certain churches.
And the next step is Bishop after that.
Not that I was seeking any of those positions.
It was bestowed upon me.
Not one time that I asked for it.
Not even one time that I inquired about.
I was called into a room and said,
Hey, this is what we're going to do.
[LAUGHTER]
Well, it happened just like that.
So we were part of the Church of God in Christ,
and we worked and we served,
were committed and faithful.
And then right before COVID,
there was some things that was transpiring in our church,
and I really had to take some time
to think about what was next.
Not only for the church, but also for me.
And so I went on a sabbatical,
which I took time off.
It was 90 days.
Time for reflection.
Time for rest, restoration, all of that.
Got the opportunity to do more writing,
more reading, and do some introspection, even with me.
Because there were times I felt like I was
preparing a message for
Sunday morning and not reading and preparing for life.
A lot of preachers can get caught up into
that where they're preparing messages
specifically for Sunday morning and not for life.
And it's a trap that you can get caught in very easily.
So I took a sabbatical and took time
off and reflected and I was looking at a path forward,
a new path forward, a new journey.
And I started realizing the impact that I've
had on not just people of God,
but people in general,
and then also other church leaders in the way of
pastors and others that serve in
leadership in ministry around the world,
as I still traveled and preached even as a pastor.
Right? And I started getting calls from
other pastors from around the country
and they were calling and they were asking hey,
can you cover me?
>> Cover me.
>> Right. So for people that don't understand that,
that means I want you to oversee my work in the ministry.
I need someone to cover me.
I don't want to be out there just
doing ministry by myself.
I need somebody I can answer to that I'm accountable
to that I'm responsible to all of that.
And there were several pastors that were calling
me emailing me, texting me.
About me covering them and wanting me
to be that overseer and have that oversight.
They wanted wisdom understanding from me.
Some of them were young pastors.
>> Sounds like what a superintendent would do.
>> Exactly.
>> But these are people that are
not church of God in Christ.
>> Exactly. So while I'm on this sabbatical,
I'm getting these calls.
I'm getting this information.
I'm getting these things.
And I take heat and I start covering them.
And so I make the decision to
leave the churches of God in Christ.
And to create my own fellowship.
And so in creating my own fellowship,
I couldn't do that and still be a part of
the organization because it
would be a conflict of interest.
Because the churches that I cover now,
they are allegiances to me.
So it would have been a conflict of interest.
And so I I talked with
the Bishop and I shared with him what was next
and some of the things that was on the agenda
that my dad had
shared with me and we talked about moving forward,
some things minister and the Bishop sat with me and said,
Hey, you have my blessing.
You're charting a new course, son.
Do what God is calling you to do.
And so it birthed
some things in me as it relates to what I'm doing now.
And so with all of that being said,
I've been doing the work overseeing
these churches for some time now.
And now this year,
October 29, I will be consecrated a bishop.
And do you know if there a college of bishop?
>> There's a joint College of bishops.
>> Tell us about it.
>> The Joint College of Bishop is a group of bishops
comprised of at least 12 where
the counsel amongst themselves is created.
And with this counsel,
there's a joint college, so to speak.
And they bring in
those people that are already doing the work,
and they trace what they call your blood line to
see you distinctively qualified to serve in this office.
And so I was thoroughly vetted,
and so here we are.
>> So you're going to be a bishop in October?
>> October 29th, I will be consecrated a bishop.
And that in and of itself is a huge deal.
Of course, in our community.
But yes, I'll be
consecrated in October of this year of 2022.
And so the church,
everybody is excited about it.
My dad's excited.
>> I bet.
>> Can you imagine all of
this history of where we come from, all of that.
>> So in this tradition,
bishop is not a part of a hierarchy,
so much as a mentor to other,
an advisor to ministers throughout the country last year.
>> That too, it is a hierarchy as well, yes.
But yes, a spiritual dignitary is what
a bishop holds in terms of his authority.
But my role will definitely be in a pre-late role,
where I'm over a group
of pastors that have their own churches,
their own missions,
their own works that they're doing throughout the world.
And this is an international fellowship
that has been birth and created.
So there's churches in Jamaica that I oversee, Trinidad,
Cayman, all over the place,
Georgia, Florida, New York.
They're all over the place.
And so it'll be official in October.
>> Fantastic. I've got about two more questions.
First of all, Greater Grace International,
how did that name change come about?
>> That name came,
it was actually the original name when I
was pastoring and preaching
before when I was at the hotel.
Remember, I was holding services at the hotel.
I was holding them under Greater Grace.
But when I came to Ponders,
I had to fall under that name.
I had to put Greater Grace on ice for a minute.
Because they voted me
[LAUGHTER]
the pastor of Ponder, they have a new baptist church.
>> That makes good sense.
>> So then in time we did the transitional change,
we did it on paper.
We did it in business with the Secretary of State,
we did everything by the book.
And that name actually is
derived from a scripture in the Book of Acts,
Chapter Number 4, I would believe,
versus 33 and 34,
where it says, and great grace.
One verse says and greater grace was upon them all.
None of them went lacking.
And they all had more than enough or something like that.
But it talks about how great grace was upon them all.
It was talking about the early church,
the new church in the Book of Acts
after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So that's where the name
absolutely came from all of that.
So that's where we came up with the name.
>> I did mean to ask you when you became Pentecostal,
people speak in tongues in your church or
does charismatic mean something different than that?
>> They do speak in tongues in our church.
The most charismatic churches,
they do follow along those lines of speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues is
from the word where they get glossolalia.
Have you heard of that? Glossolalia, they
speak in tongues as the spirit gives them utterance.
And a lot of people there's debate
with that because Paul dealt with the Corinthian church.
He says, hey, if you're going to speak,
somebody needs to be interpreted.
As you're talking, hey, what's going on?
We're confused here.
But what else has to be
understood is that it's a prayer language.
And oftentimes when people are speaking in tongues,
they're praying to God.
They're having a conversation with God.
So leave them alone.
Let them talk to God.
Go about your business,
but let them have their time with God.
And so when you look at it from that perspective,
it somewhat allows for people to understand that, hey,
we might need to back off of this argument,
that it's inappropriate or whatever.
>> Well, it was certainly there in the early church.
>> It was there. It's evident.
It was evident in the early church,
so you can't deny it.
[LAUGHTER]
>> Another question though,
I looked on your website.
You've got a co-pastor and we haven't talked
about her very much, Lady Kava.
>> That's my wife.
That's my wife for life.
She is anointed to do what she does.
And what I mean by that is for her to be
a wife of a pastor and knowing what a pastor endures,
goes through, has to deal with,
she has to be right there going through it,
dealing with it, just like I do.
And it takes someone special to be able to do that.
But she's anointed to sing.
She's anointed even to preach.
And she's also anointed for counsel.
Like she can sit down and
counsel certain people about
certain things that I couldn't do.
She has a different approach.
She's the sweet,
I might be the sour.
I don't know. But it works.
[LAUGHTER]
You know what I mean?
But it works and it wouldn't work without her.
And her background, of course,
is church and a lot of singing.
She's recorded before.
Her name is there and you can Google her.
She's recorded and made records and albums with groups.
>> Gospel music.
>> Gospel with groups, gospel groups and she's recorded.
And as a matter of fact,
we're getting ready to embark upon
doing something with her in
the way of recording in the not too distant future.
But she's a jewel
and she's been there for me through it all.
I know we've shared a lot
in this time that we've been talking,
but still the half has not been told.
Because even when I was sick,
and couldn't get well, she was there.
Because throughout this whole time span
of what I have shared today,
you're looking at someone who has
overcome all of these surgeries that I've had to
have on my left leg to be able to walk.
>> Are you still doing surgery?
>> No more surgery. But to be able to walk.
>> You seem to walk very well.
>> I walk well, I dance well in church.
[LAUGHTER]
I run and exercise well in the gym.
But through it all these surgeries, heart attack,
double pneumonia, about to die,
this last about going through C. diff,
my wife was there.
And I'll be honest with you,
I would not have made it had not she been there.
>> And that's a blessing.
>> She's a blessing. She's a jewel.
And she's anointed for what she does.
>> You have one daughter.
How old is she now?
>> Twelve years old.
>> Oh, my [LAUGHTER].
>> Twelve years old, middle school.
>> Is she going to be a gospel singer?
>> Probably not.
She's probably not going to do any of that.
We don't force any of that on her.
>> Basketball player or?
>> Now, she's fast running,
probably run some track or something like that.
We don't force anything on her.
We let her flow.
And these kids these days,
you got to just let them flow in their world,
put the guard rails there,
but still let them flow in their world.
Because I try to
dress her for school and it's like, no, dad.
>> Not anymore.
>> No. It's like, give me a T-shirt
and some jeans and she's done.
It's like, when we're growing up, we were,
you're putting clothes on [LAUGHTER] to go to school.
You put some clothes on.
But God's been good to us and we have been blessed
and it's been an interesting journey.
And I know it's not over.
But we've come a long way.
And for me to start out not even
wanting to preach, really.
And now, counseling and mentoring preachers.
It's an interesting thing how God just,
He sets you up, so to speak.
>> Well then, have we left anything
out that you wanted to talk about?
>> I don't think we have.
I think we've covered the surface of
pretty much what needed to be covered.
Maybe another interview, we can take a deep dive more
into some more of the family history.
And go into more depth of the life and times
of my enslaved family on both sides and how it differed.
One would think it was all one way.
But it wasn't, it differed.
But that's a whole another interview.
But I've enjoyed myself.
>> Fantastic. Thank you very much.
>> Thank you for your time.
Appreciate you.